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https://www.reddit.com/r/gfycat/comments/13lfb1j/psa_gfycat_... provides context and some information on alternate access methods and archival techniques. (The irony of posting a Reddit link about a service with rich content history becoming permanently inaccessible to many of its users is not lost on me, to be sure.) | |
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Wow. It really seems like liquidity drying up is causing a sea change in the tech sector. In other spaces changes are quantitative; prices are higher. In tech, without prices, entire business models are changing. | |
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Businesses actually having to break even. Who’d have thought!? | |
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Yep. Any community that is run as a single business will eventually ensh*ttify. Cut the gordian knot by avoiding all commercial or even incorporated entities for community communication. The incentives of incorporated entities, like the assumption that making a profit is required in all contexts just because they apply in business contexts, just don't align with human persons or communities. | |
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Good summary. Clear, concise, real. I wish we had advocacy groups sitting on corners with signs saying this. Seriously. People need to wake up, and they need a concise understanding to latch onto. I say it like this, "Perhaps social media where you upvote, downvote and like is just a sh*tty idea, for businesses and people. I think people WILL realize this, and I am hoping it will not crash software engineering, but I think it will, but most people building sh*tty software will leave the industry, while the useful software will continue. So it's important to be with an employer in an industry that is legitimate. | |
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Ever hear of a non-profit entity <edited - see below>? So much of what the users want from social media is not technologically innovative and thus doesn't require the profit motive to fuel that innovation. I cannot see one reason why Facecrook, Twits, or Spreddit requires a for-profit business model. Can you? | |
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>I cannot see one reason why Facecrook, Twits, or Spreddit requires a for-profit business model. Can you? Web hosting ain't free, especially at their scales. | |
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That's not what nonprofit means. You can still make money to cover expenses, you just don't go past that. | |
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Nonprofits try really, really hard to make money well beyond their near-term expenses. Wikimedia Foundation is (in)famous for this. First, they want a rainy-day fund to cover fixed expenses when income fluctuates. Second, and more importantly, they might want to create a massive endowment that provides them with stable income so that they're not beholden (or accountable) to donors or their usual business partners. The only difference, at the end of the day, is whether they ever want to IPO. | |
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The other reason a non-profit tries to more than cover its expenses is to accomplish its mission. The point of non-profits is that their goal is to accomplish something other than profiting. Sometimes the goal can cost a lot of money to accomplish, often much more than just the cost of paying its employees. For example a non-profit that raises money for cancer research might have very low costs and raise tons of money without raising eyebrows. Because they put the majority toward their goal, and everybody understands the goal, and "profit" is not that goal. | |
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An interesting experiment would be to make all companies non-profit. Could you imagine that world! I wonder if there would be less spam. | |
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They're actually a great example, they have a defined amount of financial runway they maintain, and they don't exceed it. You might notice they don't leave the fundraising banners up all year. | |
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Non profit doesn’t mean no profit. | |
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> non-profit business That's an oxymoron if I ever heard one. A business is literally an activity that is undertaken for the purpose of profit. There are activities that are entered for reasons other than profit, but they're not businesses. | |
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I work for a business owned in whole by its employees. Its goal is to pay its employees a good salary and generally act in the interest of the employees in addition to providing its core services to its customers. There is no pay out of any profits (by design), but it's a commercial enterprise (i.e., a business) nonetheless. | |
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Perhaps for legal purposes that is not considered profit, but it is obviously exactly profit - the business paying money to its owners (who happen to be exclusively its employees). | |
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The business doesn't pay its owners a cent. It pays its employees (who happen to be the owners) a salary. In a business where profit is used to pay shareholders/owners you don't count the regular salaries as 'profit paid out' either. This is no different; any profit we have is reinvested (while financially stable, there has been no occasion where the profits exceeded the amount prudent to reinvest in growth or other factors). | |
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What happens if the company makes more money than it pays salaries for some reason? I assume in this case and your description, the salaries are adjusted accordingly. If so, then the word salary here is just another word for owner dividends, at least to some extent. | |
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Those are referred to as "retained earnings" (occasionally: accumulated earnings, retained capital, or earned surplus), and accrue to the not-for-profit organisation's balance sheet. <https://www.wikiaccounting.com/retained-earnings-for-non-pro...> <https://insidecharity.org/2018/05/18/earned-income-for-nonpr...> Note that this may occur on a short-term basis given normal market variability, or over the long term The latter case is more interesting. In the short term, such business profits simply accrue to accounts, and are typically held as cash or cash-equivalents. Over the medium term, funds may be moved to various forms of generally-liquid assets (government bonds, equities, etc.), as part of the organisation's money-management strategy. In the long term ... the organisation gets to decide how to invest those resources. There are several options: - Increase wages, as you suggest. This is of course only one option. - Increase benefits. Healthcare, daycare, commute / housing / educational supports, etc. - Expand workforce. Hire additional employees. - Expand business. This might entail expanding or improving a location, opening additional location, going into multiple lines of business, or aquiring other organisations. - Expand endowment. This is particularly the case for many educational institutions, and those endowments may range into the billions of dollars. Generally you'll find these options discussed in a long term capital plan or similar strategy document. For specific forms of business organisation, such as a co-operative business (which may or may not be a not-for-profit organisation), there may also be dividend payouts to members. My understanding is that these are not equivalent to stock dividends, though I'm hazy on details. What you don't see for non-profits, however, is a mandated and frequently automatic form of return to shareholders, through either stock dividends or inflating the value of a joint stock issue. That cuts two ways: not-for-profits don't have the financial drag of spilling out money to investors, but they also typically have less access to financial capital markets. | |
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Everything you've listed is either profit for the owners, or ensuring future profit for the owners. | |
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I wonder what kind of business this is? Is everyone paid the same salary? Sounds like a great place to work, I wonder how does it look like in practice. | |
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Software as a service for healthcare. We do vary salaries based on experience and function, but there is not much of a difference between senior devs and management. We're only a small business of 10 to 20 employees though. It works reasonably well (and we're 15 years old by now); the biggest threat is external market conditions and compliance requirements (because healthcare just is a demanding field). | |
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I bet you get more done with 20 employees than most conglomerates do with 2000. Better incentives. | |
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It's a worker's co-operative. There are all sorts in the US. In SF there are (or were) supermarkets that are organised like this. | |
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Robert Bosch GmbH would be a good example. | |
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No, the employees are compensated for the time they spend working. My salary is not a profit, it’s an exchange of services for goods. My stock dividends ARE profits, excess revenue disbursed by the company to its shareholders. | |
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My comment applies to a business owned in whole by its employees, as in the comment I replied to. | |
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Not more than in any other company, with the exception that the company puts its employees needs first (but this is not exclusive to companies like mine). | |
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Even non-profits provide a 'profit' to employees in the form of a salary. It's not like they all work for free. | |
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Hey now let's not being technical correctness in to this! | |
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Peanut gallery comments really don't add anything to the conversation. Unless this isn't sarcasm and your point is that being technically correct is practically worthless. | |
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My point was that when commenting correctness by technicalities people often leave themselves open to dismissal in favour of more emotive arguments. A "How dare you be technically correct!" variation is both an expression of mob-correctness trumping technical correctness _and_ an acknowledgement of being technically correct. A sort of, you're right, I support you, but the crowd might not. Read sh*t how you like tho | |
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Depends on the definition. If an organization is arranged as, say, a limited-liability company, then it is a business no matter what its goals are. And "profit to shareholders "is neither definitional nor mandatory; the value produced can be whatever the shareholders want it to be. Of course, most of the time it’s profit. | |
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If it is an LLC, then each employee would have to be a member to exercise control and have the legal standing to request profits from the company. An LLC does NOT have a requirement to maximize shareholder profit because there are no shareholders, just members. An LLC has a max number of members and members are required to maintain their portion of tax liability (this means they will owe a % of tax due or receive a % of tax refunds). This overwhelmingly means employees are NOT part of the LLC, as all it would take is one employee not paying their taxes for the entire LLC to be at risk (also this is why investors will run like the wind from an LLC raising money). An LLC CAN have an employment contract where they offer paper shares, which can translate to profit sharing but they are called paper shares because they are unsecured debts and are literally worth nothing in the event of bankruptcy. They could be a C corp (could also be an S corp but that comes with a 100 share holder limit), but then they have a duty to maximize profit to the shareholders. In a private corporation, the shareholders may be less inclined to sue, but the option is still there and as such the CEO must work to ensure the company is profitable. If they decide to share all profits with the employees, and the employees are majority shareholders, then this likely falls within the sphere of maximize profits. There are things like a publicly-traded LLP which allows employees to own a portion of the company while offloading tax liabilities to the shareholder, but that is usually limited to companies which depend on depleting natural resources (think oil, gas, coal, lithium, etc) | |
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Any multi-party LLC I've been part of, and it's been more than a few, has provisions about tax liabilities and allowed the LLC to forcefully pay them. Additionally, LLCs rules would control equity holde payouts, and provisions around equity liquidation. | |
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LLC rules do not apply during bankruptcy. Equity holders are unsecured in bankruptcy, employee salaries and secured debts have a higher priority. You can have provisions about tax liabilities, but that is a specific risk that must be mitigated in an LLC that a corporation does not have to deal with, thus it’s an added risk | |
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If we're talking about the United States, it's not an oxymoron at all. I've got some extremely profitable 501(c)(3) non-profit organizations I could show you. Autism Speaks comes to mind. They may not be making money for public shareholders, but they're making a lot of money for the people who run them, all the same. Also plenty of organizations look like businesses in every way except their tax status. Thrift stores, for example. Goodwill isn't a nonprofit anymore, but even when it was it also employed all the same abusive labor practices and suchlike that you'd expect from a for-profit business. | |
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Yes, from a taxonomy perspective, you are correct. I'll edit to be precise because the definitions don't change the point of my post. | |
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Actually a pretty good point. | |
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Non-profit in a capitalist society? Seriously? This ain't Star Trek. | |
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Living in an unregulated capitalist society doesn't mean we should reward people or companies that are racing to the bottom putting values and customers aside, once their market has been "cornered" (these companies bet on the unlikelihood of users being incensed enough to dethrone their monopoly). | |
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Silicon valley is based in a country that balks at universal healthcare FFS.And I have no faith in the techno priest class that is just as corrupt as the Jesuits of old. They'd sell out their principles for a Lambo as we have seen time and time again.But stay positive if that's what keeps you sane. | |
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And that link is also inaccessible, underscoring some point... Plan A: continue as now, make a little money and everyone eats, or Plan B: pretend to your investors you will be super duper profitable, wreck the internet, and then go out of business with your golden parachute. | |
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It is the Elon's rate limit... | |
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There is a big difference between making a profit and optimizing for profit. Plenty of businesses make a profit - even a healthy profit - while respecting their employees and contributing to their community. Ones which optimize for profit inevitably become evil. | |
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The context is 37Signal has moved from cloud to their owned servers. You can decide whether that is an evil move. | |
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With that you mean that in tech the value extraction has been in the hands of only a few players (which is exactly what you'd expect in a global market with near-perfect competition. To some extent you could say the entire cause of this is that governments allow multinational companies to exist at all). Value production for the internet was mostly done for free. Both where it comes to end users and the hosting they needed. And yes, sometimes by "wasting investor dollars" (of course investigating new things, wasting dollars, is exactly what investment is supposed to do, that it does that is why investment is allowed). And ironically this goes multiple steps up the value chain. Users and mods are complaining to reddit that they don't "pay" them enough. Reddit is complaining that Google/FB/even OpenAI at the moment don't "pay" them enough by trying to take in ads directly, and presumably training their own AIs soon on "their" data. Elon Musk is complaining that he's providing data for free (it's even costing him some money, even though not anywhere close to the amount he implies) and not getting the dollars AI companies are attracting with "his (users)" data. The real value in OpenAI is that Google's position is that they are the arbiter of where users go. Users decide where to put their attention 99% ... and Google 1% (and FB 0.1%, and reddit 0.01%). But OpenAI is a serious threat to Google's 1%, because it can give better answers and therefore will have the perfect, most expensive, place to put ads if things keep going the way they're going. For Google this is a lose-lose proposition. Either they win, get to keep their position because they get the best Chatbot. However, running this chatbot is much more expensive than Google search (and they will need to restart their revenue optimization with angry shareholders screaming at them. There is no adwordsLLM yet). So they'll need to run a much more expensive internet scrape on a regular basis, and figure out how to run ads on this new platform, just to maintain the position they currently still have. Shareholders don't care, they just want to see Google's dollar amounts go up 20% per year as they did for a decade. And if Google doesn't do this massive investment? Well, they may lose everything. Funny how apt the old Futurama joke has become "the internet has always been about the free and open exchange of somebody else's ideas". Futurama meant Napster. But Reddit has exactly this business model. Google has exactly this business model. Twitter ... etc. I bet the tech sector has actually made more money on this than even the most absurd claims of the RIAA say Napster has cost them. | |
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> OpenAI is a serious threat to Google's 1%, because it can give better answers It does seem to give better answers. But I don't think that's necessarily indicative of which kind of technology is capable of giving better search results. Google isn't what it was 20 years ago, so I don't think that what Google is now is terribly indicative of what their core technology is capable of being. They've largely allowed their search service to sink into a quagmire of content farms. They occasionally make a vague swipe at dealing with the absolute worst of it, but for the longest time they've had little incentive to put too much effort into it because these same content farms produce a sizable chunk of their ad revenue. And they won't go down without a fight. I can't imagine it will be that easy for their crown to be wrested away by a chatbot with stratospheric operating costs that's been jerry-rigged into an ersatz search engine that nobody can afford to "reindex" more often than once every couple years. I wouldn't be surprised if a few rounds of proximal policy optimization costs more than it would cost Google to apply some proper attention to their search result quality. | |
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Their service also got destroyed by SEO. Google has been at war with the public for decades. They simply lost. The public literally destroyed their product. Then they needed to increase ads. They are on a runaway train to zero. | |
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Great post, but I would rephrase this > Shareholders don't care, they just want to see Google's dollar amounts go up 20% per year as they did for a decade. And if Google doesn't do this massive investment? Well, they may lose everything. to “they may stagnate”. Alphabet shareholders are not going to be left with worthless shares because Alphabet still has the ability to earn tens of billions of dollars of profit per year, just shares worth less than they hoped they would be worth. I.e. they might have to be content playing in the market cap of hundreds of billions rather than trillions. | |
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> OpenAI is a serious threat to Google's 1%, because it can give better answers For now. source: old enough to remember Netscape vs Microsoft and many other examples. | |
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The VC funding pyramid ran out of suckers | |
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I really hope we see more ideas that actually can support themselves. | |
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What's the next business model? AOL? CompuServe? | |
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The link rot resulting from this will be pretty bad all over the internet. Sad they didn't manage to be sustainable. | |
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What's weird is that I can not find any announcement or an article mentioning this acquisition. | |
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It is weird how little information there is about the acquisition. An HN comment from a month ago has links to evidence the acquisition took place: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=36015157. The title of the official LinkedIn page (https://archive.is/uqBnf) says "Gfycat (acquired by Snap Inc)". It looks like it really happened, just quietly. There is something funny about Snap buying a company and then setting a timer to delete all the videos. Shame about the data loss. | |
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Same, I was looking for the same thing. | |
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Good. I hate gifs so much. | |
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gfycat had/has videos, not gifs. | |
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I disagree. Gyfcats don't really contain anything of value in my opinion. It's much different compared to other image hosts which can contain the only copy of something. Most gyfcats are illegal reproductions of other material. | |
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You're wrong. There's wealths of information on gfycat. Maybe just not for things you know about. For instance, smash melee used gfycat heavily. There is in depth analysis of the game using gfycat as visuals. There will be knowledge loss in that community in Sept 1. | |
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>For instance, smash melee used gfycat heavily. I can assure you melee uses Youtube much more heavily. Anything not currently hosted on YouTube can be reupload fairly easily. | |
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There's definitely random small Reddit posts with mechanics or metagame insights that link to gfycat that are not on YT. I agree rehosting isn't hard. But there will be information loss by the deadline without serious effort. EDIT: This is reminding me to back up some niche twitter melee analysis given that whole situation. | |
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The Smash community is technologically adept and will migrate and/or archive in time. Honestly, I expected most of the information to be locally hosted on smashboards or their wiki. (And if not now, they will be soon). I'm worried about other communities though. | |
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> The Smash community is technologically adept and will migrate and/or archive in time. "technologically adept" and "uses gfycat instead of wiki or forum" is mutually exclusive | |
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Some of the most skilled tech people I know have had some of the most low-tech tech solutions in their non-professional lives (and sometimes similar on the professional side too), imo because they had the experience to spot ideas that were perfect for a simple use case despite seeming like a silly idea. If gfycat provided them with an ideal - for what they and their users wanted - and free (I assume) way to host their clips that the community liked then apart from the eggs in one basket issue can you really say they made a bad decision? If (and sure it's a big 'if') they made sure everything was backed up and ready to easily move should something like this happen, then it could well have been an idea decision that worked well for years? | |
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Those .gif animations were built by hacking a Gamecube emulator to display the hitboxes and hurtboxes of animations. Then playing those animations in the hacked emulator with the circles (red for hitbox, blue for hurtbox) overlaid with the characters and their animations. At a minimum, the smash community members who built that data have an expert-level understanding of Gamecube graphics programming, Gamecube assembly language, and Super Smash Bros's internal scripting language to create those posts. --------- Yes. This is a very technically adept community. I'm not very much a part of them, but I can see the expert-level reverse engineering work needed to get this working. And the knowledge won't be forever lost if it is lost. The importance of hitbox / hurtbox reverse-engineering is common in all fighting games (Blazblue, Guilty Gear, Street Fighter, Marvel vs Capcom, Super Smash Bros). The various communities always work on reverse-engineering all the frame-data and hitbox/hurtbox information ASAP whenever new fighting games come out, so that expert-level fighting game players know what their training routines should be. | |
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> At a minimum, the smash community members who built that data have an expert-level understanding of Gamecube graphics programming, Gamecube assembly language, and Super Smash Bros's internal scripting language to create those posts. Actually this was possible before Dolphin existed. They did it on raw hardware. The devs left an extensive debug mode in with various displays like hitboxes. So a little Action Replay cheat was enough. | |
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A lot of this niche stuff isn't hosted anywhere else. Smashboards doesn't have extensive content hosting and has always relied on other services. No way it's all archived by this deletion deadline. | |
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How did the game depend on gfycat? Will the game break if Nintendo doesn't update for this? | |
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The community relied on part on gfycat to host content about the game. There's a wealth of knowledge about the game outside of the game. As is standard for any competitive video game. | |
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The dismissal of Internet culture as frivolous and of no value is both disturbing and just factually wrong, especially when internet culture is increasingly just all culture. If somebody decided to just abruptly obliterate a large chunk of all the books and music and television produced from 2010 onwards I assume you wouldn’t be so dismissive of it, and I think the fact that you apply different standards to the Internet is indicative of a mindset that may have been valid in the 90s and early 2000s, but does not represent how the world works today. | |
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>to just abruptly obliterate a large chunk of all the books and music and television produced from 2010 onwards I assume you wouldn’t be so dismissive of it If only a single copy was obliterated I would be just as dismissive because any of the destroyed material can still be accessed and archived by using another copy. | |
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Sampling and quoting is a creative act! Value will be lost. | |
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Okay, but I don't see it as bad as the source material being lost. You can always remake those clips. The reverse can't be done to go from clips to the original. | |
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And the people that put significant effort into their work will reupload it to other services, if they haven't already. Similarly, exceptional work is probably saved by random folks elsewhere. | |
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> The reverse can't be done to go from clips to the original. EverythingGPT, generate a 140-minute movie containing this clip, Oscar for best supporting actor, clever twist in the end, stilted dialogue in parts, 4k. | |
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Text on homepage in case it changes: Service Notice The Gfycat service is being discontinued. Please save or delete your Gfycat content by visiting https://www.gfycat.com and logging in to your account. After September 1, 2023, all Gfycat content and data will be deleted from gfycat.com | |
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I like the 2 sign up popups when reading about the very service disappearing! Does anyone have a view into why? Did they run out of outside funding? Another interest rate kill? | |
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Snapchat bought them last year. Probably related. | |
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Why would they buy something only to sh*t it down? Why would you burn money like that? | |
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This is SOP for businesses, especially internet businesses, trying to lock down competition so they don't have to compete but can just be the only relevant business. Getting bought up has not generally been a positive thing for anyone but the founders cashing out in a long time. | |
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8 year old company. Sad to see them go, they’ve become a bit of an internet institution at this point. I suppose there are no prospective buyers, but how can there be nothing of value? And if there’s nothing of value, why not dump the dataset? | |
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>but how can there be nothing of value? All independent image hosts suffer the same fate. There's simply no money in it. The moment you try to monetize people will move to a new free service, and the cycle starts over. | |
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There's some money on it, but not enough to get rich. For example, Imgur was profitable in 2014, but they had to raise money and expand... Maybe a service like this should start with ads and paid plans (that unlock restrictions), keep their running costs low, and never stop being an image hosting site? Too many start without ads, get users and some investment and then spend it all on expensive AWS hosting/CDN bills and employees that are hired to create a social media platform... and then they stop being an image hosting website, fill the site with ads, focus too much on growth, and so on. I don't blame them for taking a big pay check, but I don't think the entrepreneur type works well for image hosting. | |
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> Imgur was profitable in 2014, but they had to raise money and expand... Why did they "have" to raise money and expand? Maybe this was sarcasm and I missed it in which case ignore. | |
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Imgur is backed by venture capital. A stable, sustainable business isn’t enough; they have to make gobs of cash to repay their investors. | |
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I understand the need to expand given that you have investors. I was asking why they needed to get investors if they were profitable. | |
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Sure, it is now, but why did it have to be? I don't remember them hurting for many or anything before the VC money came in, but nobody ever accused me of being too astute. | |
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Coz owners wanted more money | |
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Yes, it's a sarcastic "have". | |
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Got it. I would've written it like: They were profitable but then they haaaaad to go and raise money. :-) | |
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Just sell peoples IP adresses and browser fingerprints and what they were looking at in text format | |
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I hope this is sarcasm. Please do not do this. The world is crappy enough as is, no need for more spam and more privacy loss to keep an image site afloat. | |
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It's cute that you think this doesn't happen already. The problem is that it's just not that profitable. What is an advertiser going to do, with the knowledge that internet people like to look at cats? | |
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When did I ever say that? Perhaps you should re-read what I wrote. I was stating we have enough of it as is. No need to be snarky when you couldn’t be bothered to read. Of course it exists, what kind of troglodyte do you take me as, sir?! | |
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that's only true because they all try to monetize by making their service obnoxious or even hostile to users. Even if they were to insist on making their money by pushing ads, doing it in a way that doesn't degrade the service would go a long way toward keeping users around. When I think about the massive amount of data image hosts collect, I have to imagine there should be ways to make money from that information without any impact on the user's experience uploading or viewing photos. As far as I can tell the biggest problem image hosts have is dealing with our insane copyright laws. Users just want to share information, while companies want to act as gatekeepers and toll collectors which often leaves image hosts caught in the middle. They hold massive data sets of our collective culture and interests, but have a lot of limits on what can be done with it. Most of their content was uploaded to them in violation of copyright laws to start with. | |
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Don’t businesses that host also have to pay for moderators that deal with removing media of abuse and other illegal content? That cannot be cheap once you are popular. | |
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I'm a little surprised because in the era of CDNs, you'd think image distribution would be much easier and cheaper. | |
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as long as there's any cost and no one else willing to support we'll have these services disappearing | |
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I wonder how long imgur will be around and how many broken links on reddit and the web after that. Then there are all the short links on the web, what happens when t.co breaks when someone refuses to pay the bill? | |
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That already feels like the norm tbh. Nearly every imgur link in an old reddit post or chatlog seems to be dead these days. | |
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Another "tinypic" situation. Where you search for a guide and get nothing... Also why did snapchat shareholders allow the compaby to spend money on a service and then just kill it. Was gfycat a snapchat competitor? How dothr anti competition offices allow it. Why do the shareholders allow it. | |
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They may have absorbed tech, offering a counter service, or prefer customers to be invested in one service form over another service form. Or C-levels or replaced. Or or.... (tons of reasons) | |
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> They may have absorbed tech At Snap's scale, I doubt there's tech they're interested in. | |
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instead of the usual archiving, I wonder if you could find the same GIFs on Giphy and build a cheap redirect service. | |
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That's rather sudden, is this a defacement or something? | |
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They're being closed by Snap, who bought them. | |
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I didn't realize Snapchat still existed | |
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You are very out of touch then. I went to check the top charts in the iOS App Store to see where it sat, and I didn’t even get that far because it was at the top of the Apps tab as the 4th thing listed by Apple under “iPhone essentials” | |
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For regular users, this has been expected. Uploading content broke (or was disabled?) late last year I believe? So nothing new has been uploaded since then, but the company never said anything or responded to reports or questions | |
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Strangely their 'Pro' page is still listing subscriptions https://gfycat.com/pro (I haven't gone further than the login to try and actually purchase one). | |
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Oh for the good ol days of Napster, Torrents & Skype! | |
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Very unfortunate they had to go down this way. There's so much content hosted on it and plenty of support for embedding in all sorts of platforms | |
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