Forums: Rules Discussion: Using Quick Repair during combat (2024)

Hi everyone,

I wanted to know what you think about the use of Quick Repair during combat.

Quick Repair reduces the duration of Repair to 3 actions at Master and even 1 action at Legendary, strongly hinting that you can use it in combat.
But at the same time, the Repair action states that "You spend 10 minutes attempting to fix a damaged item, placing the item on a stable surface and using the repair kit with both hands." The both hands are not much the issue (even if it can be annoying) but it's really the "stable surface" that bugs me.

Is the ground a "stable surface"? I tend to think that yes.
What do I need to do to "place the item on a stable surface"? Do I need an action to get the item back in hand or is it done during the Repair action?
If I try to repair a construct, do I need to "move" the construct in any way or can I just repair it while it's standing?

I don't know if the Repair text is mostly fluff text and that Quick Repair should be usable nearly always (baring a few cases where there's no place to put the item) or if these are limitations including extra actions to the Repair action.

What are your thoughts about that?

Well, looking at the Repair Kit

Quote:

A repair kit allows you to perform simple repairs while traveling. It contains a portable anvil, tongs, woodworking tools, a whetstone, and oils for conditioning leather and wood. You can use a repair kit to Repair items using the Crafting skill. You can draw and replace a worn repair kit as part of the action that uses it.

seems everything listed here is flavor because what really matters is the bolded part.

Just to mention the portable anvil doesn't matter at all when it comes to repair ( it's not required to be used as a surface for smithing/repair a sword or plate ).

As for a shield, I'd go with this:

1) Release/Drop the shield ( A nimble shield handed character with a free hand would not be able to simply repair the shield without dropping it on a flat surface ).

Quote:

The only exploit would be a Dual shielded character with either Bastion dedication ( for double nimble hand ) and viking dedication.

He'd be able to drop and quick draw his broken shield, alternating the one used to block.

It would work better with the Fighter paragon guard stance, for the best action management

2) Repair ( provided 2 free hands and the repair kit ready to use )

As for a construct, I'd require it to be laid down ( I think it's a so typical/common image it doesn't require anything else to be said ).

As for a wall/door/barricade/etc... I'd have the player to repair the section and then have to put it back.

For example, a player won't be able to repair a broken fence without taking that specific part of the fence, having it laid down onto a flat surface. No smithing vertical stuff.

Finally, being totally honest here, I think that quick repair is something that was meant to be used on structures, at some point, during a combat.

So No constructs, no shields, no pets, no allies, etc...

I'd say it should work like using other second-printing toolkits: just 1 hand is needed, and if any stable surfaces are involved, using them is already included in the 3 actions (or 1 action).

I agree that the ground usually counts as a stable surface.

HumbleGamer wrote:

1) Release/Drop the shield ( A nimble shield handed character with a free hand would not be able to simply repair the shield without dropping it on a flat surface ).

Would you ask for an action to take the shield back?

HumbleGamer wrote:

As for a construct, I'd require it to be laid down ( I think it's a so typical/common image it doesn't require anything else to be said ).

So, how would you handle that with an actual construct (Familiar or Companion)?

Because Repair is the equivalent of Medicine on these ones. And Quick Repair is very close to Battle Medicine in its ability to heal with one action (at very high level, so not that close to Battle Medicine). So I don't know if it's intended or if it happened by chance.

SuperBidi wrote:

HumbleGamer wrote:

1) Release/Drop the shield ( A nimble shield handed character with a free hand would not be able to simply repair the shield without dropping it on a flat surface ).

Would you ask for an action to take the shield back?

HumbleGamer wrote:

As for a construct, I'd require it to be laid down ( I think it's a so typical/common image it doesn't require anything else to be said ).

So, how would you handle that with an actual construct (Familiar or Companion)?

Because Repair is the equivalent of Medicine on these ones. And Quick Repair is very close to Battle Medicine in its ability to heal with one action (at very high level, so not that close to Battle Medicine). So I don't know if it's intended or if it happened by chance.

For the former, obviously.

As for the second one, there's the inventor feat especially meant to heal the construct.

Keep also in mind that until further xlarifications, the eye patch might be intended to heal double the amount of any battle medicine.

This even leaving apart:

- no daily cooldown
- eventually more than once per fight
- auto levelling for free ( crafting increases on its own)

Battle medicine requires the character to explicitly build for, it.

Compare using battle medicine on all allies once per day and it feels balanced IMO.

HumbleGamer wrote:

As for the second one, there's the inventor feat especially meant to heal the construct.

This is a level 1 feat, we are speaking of a level 15 strategy.

HumbleGamer wrote:

Keep also in mind that until further xlarifications, the eye patch might be intended to heal double the amount of any battle medicine.

This even leaving apart:

- no daily cooldown
- eventually more than once per fight
- auto levelling for free ( crafting increases on its own)

Battle medicine requires the character to explicitly build for, it.

Compare using battle medicine on all allies once per day and it feels balanced IMO.

Right now, the Eyepatch only affects critical successes, as such Battle Medicine still heals more than what you repair.

Also, Battle Medicine doesn't ask you for Legendary Proficiency. And the Crafting auto levelling is an Inventor's asset, don't turn it into a drawback. For all other characters, you have to invest into Crafting.
And Battle Medicine works on your allies when Repair only works on your companion.
It seems pretty balanced to me (actually, I think Battle Medicine is way more impactful than Quick Repair at level 15+).

Battle medicine is indeed more versatile in addition to being strong.
No doubt about it.

If we want to push it even further, every single battle medicine has its own CD.

So a party of 4 could get 4 different battle medicine. Leaving apart medic dedication and investigator class to exploit the mechanic even further.

Talking about the inventor, it is because it's the only one with a a construct.

I wouldn't even consider using repair on a summmoned construct, either because it would be a waste of time and a non realistic situation ( let's be honest here, nobody would summon a construct, or even try to repair him during combat).

What's left is shields and items.

Items are IMO a too large pool and can change depends the situation, so I see them belong to the DM decision.

As for shields, if you'd be able to repair them during a combat ( even without the need to drop and take them back) I think it would be overkill at some point ( lvl 15+, so 1/3 of the game).

I can only guess that limits ( 2 hands, flat surface ) are there to prevent permashields, mostly. Outside combat using 6 actions to refill a shield ho and then do a 10 min action like anybody else seems a very good deal ( rather than expending 3 minutes, not being able then to start the 10 min activity as anybody else).

HumbleGamer wrote:

I can only guess that limits ( 2 hands, flat surface ) are there to prevent permashields, mostly. Outside combat using 6 actions to refill a shield ho and then do a 10 min action like anybody else seems a very good deal ( rather than expending 3 minutes, not being able then to start the 10 min activity as anybody else).

Well, that's what I try to determine. If the limit is there to prevent usage during combat or if the usage during combat is intended.

Because at Master proficiency, you need 3 actions, which is a bit different than 1 round as it implies combat tracking (as outside combat, no one tracks actions). Also, if you need extra actions on top of the 3 actions, it goes for one full round to repair your shield to more than one full round, that's a big difference in how it is played (especially if you have Reactive Shield as you won't be able to use it during one round).

Overall, I'm still hesitating as I read that Whew and you have different points of view on the question.

Saying you shouldn't be able to use quick repair in combat feels bizarre to me, because that's literally the whole point of the master/legendary benefits of the feat. Individual actions aren't tracked out of encounter mode.

Being able to quickly repair your shield isn't just possible, it's basically the whole point of the feat, given that at the time it was printed shields were the only thing you'd even need to repair on the fly.

Exploration activities are counted in minutes.

During Exploration, there is zero practical difference between 10 minutes and 11 minutes. Counting in actions is unnecessary for an activity that would be Exploration-only.

Encounter activities are counted in rounds. Actions are a subpart of rounds.

I see no rule saying you cannot spend Actions during encounters on an activity that is indeed measured in actions.

voideternal wrote:

A 'stable surface' isn't a core-rulebook defined keyword or a listed category. It's technically up to GM discretion, but I expect most tables (mine included) wouldn't bother with the minutiae of specifying which floor is or isn't a stable surface. I can see some GMs saying certain floors requiring acrobatics checks to stay upright would not count as a stable surface, but in practice I think many tables would forget / omit this detail.

This

As GM I'm happy to go with a normal surface is stable - someone holding it is stable.

I'm not going as far as Humble Gamer and say it is just fluff and therefore has to be disregarded 100%.

Quick Repair while flying?

Quick Repair while Swimming?

Quick Repair while in Quicksand ? (actually rare but our group just encountered a lot of sand yesterday)

All of these are rather uncommon circ*mstances. And I'm happy if players use creativity (one person holding it both hands while the other is doing quick repair while both fly).

Squiggit wrote:

Saying you shouldn't be able to use quick repair in combat feels bizarre to me, because that's literally the whole point of the master/legendary benefits of the feat. Individual actions aren't tracked out of encounter mode.

Being able to quickly repair your shield isn't just possible, it's basically the whole point of the feat, given that at the time it was printed shields were the only thing you'd even need to repair on the fly.

Agreed.

With the Master level proficiency (3 action repair) it would probably take the better part of two rounds to repair an item mid-combat. A shield for instance: 1 action as the last action of a round to un-wield the shield and place it on the ground (a sufficiently stable surface in my thinking). 3 actions to repair shield. One action on the next round to re-wield the shield.

With Legendary proficiency (1 action repair) you could do all three steps in one round. Though it would take your entire turn.

I could also see allowing it to interact with other abilities that allow equipment to be wielded while still keeping the hand holding it available. I know there is at least one of those for shields. With that I am still on the fence on if I would allow repairs on the shield while still wielding the shield. Since it costs at least a feat, if not a dedication slot, in order to get the ability, I am leaning towards allowing it. Not sure I would allow it with juggle though. That may not break any explicit rules, but it certainly doesn't fit narratively with keeping the item on a stable surface.

The Raven Black wrote:

When it's only 1 action, you could even use the back of an ally.

This is the kind of thing I'd always avoid.

@superbidi: was just flavor stuff. The laid down construct being repaired ( the flat surface).

But maybe on allies ( if we consider it the equivalent of bm) the flat surface is something somebody shouldn't care about.

After all the repair rules are from crb and still unanswered ( I remembere there have already been posts about repairing in combat. Couldn't remember of any answer).

You just need some engineering skills!

get an immovable rod, use sovereign glue to glue it on the inside of the shield.

then, assuming you are wearing the kit, and the other hand is free, you press the switch* on the inside of the shield, making the shield itself the stable surface, since it requires a DC50 athletics to move to begin with, and then using your free hand, you hammer it into shape. Then last action, depress the immovable rod button, and there you go!

*nimble shield hand can help with actually holding the glued rod in the shield using your shield hand, if you want to justify the requirement of it being held, you can also use that hand to press the switch since it's an interact action.

SuperBidi wrote:

I must admit, a bit part of my question was about Companions. As repairing a Construct Companion is equivalent to healing it. I'd like to know what you think about this use of Quick Repair. HumbleGamer spoke about laying it down, but without explaining how they would do that. Would you allow the use of Quick Repair on a Construct Companion? Would you add additional steps to do so or just the action cost?

If the construct you're healing does not move while you repair it, I would consider it a flat surface by itself. Quick repair would be ok for me but it still takes 2 hands and the repair kit.

And I really love the aesthetics of fixing your construct while fighting occurs all around.

If you're asking from a game-balance point of view of repairing construct companions, I don't think it's a big issue. Legendary crafting healing via repair heals a lot more than other one-action heals (50 ~ 70 depending on if you have the crafter's eyepiece), but you need adjacency and it's limited to your construct companion, which is kind of a low-priority target anyway.

If hypothetically we get an ancestry that can be repaired, then we might start having balance issues.

Edit: actually 50~70 per action isn't that far off from a level 9 / level 10 heal, which many animal companion classes can get via heal animal, and heal animal is range 30.

As noted by others, of course you can use Quick Repair in encounter mode, the only time when individual action count matters. But it's complex.

Many skill functions with a kit seem to require two hands because one hand is working and the other is holding the tools. A worn kit can replace that latter hand. Yay.
But with Repair, both hands are explicitly using the repair kit, meaning the PC must have both available. For a weapon wielder or caster w/ a staff, this adds a lot more actions than just finding a stable surface to work upon. In many combats one would want to stow their other items due to risk, and then they'd have to draw them afterward. And leaving the item you want to repair on the ground is kinda risky too if your enemies all have turns before you'd pick it up again.

So yeah, you can Quick Repair in combat, but it'd usually not be advisable, even with a much-loved shield. Better to end the combat faster by attacking (unless I suppose, it's one game-changing weapon that needs repairing!). In a multi-wave combat w/ a few rounds in-between, then it'd shine.

Tangent: Wow what a Master Craftsperson could output for a city! (7th being a somewhat reasonable level for a fantasy NPC, I'd think.)
With helpers putting items into place, the master could repair an item every six seconds for say 8 hours/day. Some items might take a few attempts, but at that rate I'd think they could repair everything in a day, and w/ better quality than most of their rivals.
And a Legendary one could likely crash a local economy if they had a mind to. :-O (Though it does seem they'd lose potential money in the process of underbidding.)

Quick repair was compared to Battle Medicine

How do you deal with the following:

Legendary Crafter stands behind construct:

Action1:Quick Repair
Action 2:Quick Repair
Action 3:Quick Repair

The main cost for Quick Repair in battle is to get your hands free. But once you started to repair - why stop.

10 foot corridor - the new tactic - 2 constructs in front, one (or two) legendary crafters behind to heal up to 200HP+ per round

Not sure I will ever see it on a table but wanted to throw this in when we compare Battle Medicine to Quick Repair. Battle Medicine is once a day - Quick Repair right now is unlimited.

Teleport / burrow next to the repairers and attack them instead, or throw out a bunch of AoE or ranged attacks. Having legendary repair means you're facing level 13+ opponents, and those tend to have more tools at their disposal than a bunch of brutes who can't walk past a body-blocked corridor.

Edit: alternatively, don't engage the PCs in a 10ft corridor.

Are constructs affected by Heal or Lay on hands ?

If not, this seems a good balance point.

Squiggit wrote:

Saying you shouldn't be able to use quick repair in combat feels bizarre to me, because that's literally the whole point of the master/legendary benefits of the feat. Individual actions aren't tracked out of encounter mode.

Being able to quickly repair your shield isn't just possible, it's basically the whole point of the feat, given that at the time it was printed shields were the only thing you'd even need to repair on the fly.

Material statistics are in the CRB including for walls and doors, etc. Weapons and shields were never the only thing you may have to repair on the fly.